Training A Dog

Question: How is pack theory applied when training a dog?

(Posted by: ███████ Fiónnabhair ███████ on 2010-08-19 04:32:55)

Do you think it exists? If it does, how would you take advantage of that?

Posted by: ms manners on 2010-08-19, 09:16:53

It think any observant person who has more than one dog (living in a group, not confined to individual kennels) has to notice pack behavior. I disagree with the "pack leader is never aggressive " idea, because I have seen pack leaders be aggressive with my own eyes. I can see how the situation would different when dogs grow up within the pack. But I bring in new adult dogs, many with no "dog manners ", on a regular basis. My rat terrier "top dog " treats each one differently. Some he ignores, some he physically reprimands. A physical reprimand sounds pretty scary - growling, snapping, and sometimes screaming on the part of the dog being disciplined, but there is never any blood....its only to make a point. He doesn't need to physically reprimand my own dogs because they already know the rules, and do not challenge him. He will, however, push one of them out of the way if he wants something they have. He will also clean their faces whether they like it or not (the chihuahua does not, and grumbles the entire time) - it seems to be a dominance ritual, and I have seen it with other "top dogs ", as well. He has helped me with twenty small dogs so far, and is a long way from being "deposed ".....he is most definitely the leader (under me, of course.) :o) Frankly, I let him do a lot of the work, because he is good at it. I do not let him intervene when I am training, however (he will try if a dog growls at me). I also do see bickering in the lower pack members. My Westie used to be number two dog, but the chi has been pushing to move up the pack hierarchy in the last couple of months. She stalks the Westie and humps her unless I stop her. I crate her when I am not around, to prevent her bullying....she already thinks she is queen of the world, and she does not need any encouragement. :o) My big "top dog " also uses physical force to get his way....in fact he is a bit of a bully, and I have had to step in and back him off on occasion when he got too rough. As far as what I do.....NILIF is my primary tool - I control all the resources. I make new dogs earn "pack " privileges, like sleeping on the bed with us, or sitting on the couch with the rest of us. New dogs are not allowed to hang out anywhere but the floor, and they sleep in a crate. Any dog that physically challenges me receives a physical correction. I walk all the small dogs together, and any dog who refuses to come to me to be harnessed gets left behind when the pack walks. I have found that to be a powerful consequence.....even the pathologically fearful foster dog I had would wait by the door for his harness (looking like he was going to be beaten, but more worried about being left behind than my touching him.)

Posted by: LiSe on 2010-08-19, 04:38:20

I think there is such a thing. With dogs I would become the leader and not let themcontrol you. The problems can occur when you don't be firm but fair ceaser Milan focuses very much on the pack philosohy if you believe in it I would watch his show Hope it helps

Posted by: Maggie on 2010-08-19, 04:40:58

Strongest dog in the pack is usually the most respected. He's called alpha male, and other dogs are trying to copy him and are following him all the time. So if you have two dogs, and if you make the dominant one to feel like you are "alpha male ", than the one that's under him in hierarchy will feel like you are at the top. So pack theory is also working in human-dog relations. When you bring your dog home, you should let every one to help around him, ie. if dog see children are making him food, he'll understand he's "in their mercy ", and when he understand you are higher in hierarchy then them, he'll understand you are at the top.

Posted by: Kendra~RIP Hannah <3 on 2010-08-19, 04:49:00

The only thing "applied " is that I am the "alpha ". I stopped using "Pack Leader " ever since dog whisperer existed. I don't take advantage of it per se... they already know, I don't need to do anything further. What I find stupid and non sense is that thing if the dogs go in front of you it's dominance and they're the leader. Wow.. I think a part of it exists, not fully tho.

Posted by: Cookie on 2010-08-19, 05:04:56

The original alpha/ dominance model was born out of a short-term study of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. If was a good start, butr later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. 1. These were short-term studies based on about 1% of wolf life, 2. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model " comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos. Alpha rolls; The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the sub to exert his dominance. This is actually an "appeasement ritual " instigated by the subordinate wolr, who offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolk grabs it, the sub rolls over presenting his belly. There is NO force, it is all voluntary.. wolves only flip an animal when they mean to kill it. The truth is, dogs are not wolves any more than we are chimps. Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30 year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years were devoted to social behavior of a dog pack, not a wolf pack. and some of the findings are here; 1.male dogs have a rigid hierarchy Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable 3.When mixing both, males follow their "constititution " but females make "amendments " 4.Puppies are tolerated until the age of 4 months, when the older middle-ranked dogs teach them to take their place at the bottom of the hierarchy, sometimes literally giving them "hell ". 5.There is NOphysical domination. it is all accomplished through psycological harassment and ritualism. 6.Any "alpha " dog that resorts to bullying or force is quickly deposed by the rest of the animals. dictators are not allowed. 7.Alpha dogs rule by controlling resources, making sure all in the pack are cared for and fed. They control sleeping spots, however will give it up to a low ranking dog that is ill. 8. The only squabbles arising are among the middle ranking dogs, trying to advance their position. 9.Low ranking animals do not squabble. Translating this into our own dogs means being a benevolent "leader ", providing all necessary resources and rewarding deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. If you do not provide your dogs necessities, he will try to provide them himself, probably not with attitudes you particularly like. Serious training works well when you are aware of how your dog thinks. You need not bully, hit, yell, not use ecollars, prongs, chokes, when you understand this. Fair treatment as a "leader ", will get you a well behaved dog, happy, and more than just a pet, more a true companion.

Posted by: nellana on 2010-08-19, 07:12:55

I gave Cookie's answer the thumb's up, although I'm not sure that Beach's findings apply to my "pack " here at home. (I'd need to study his findings, which I haven't done.) For example, I find all my dogs extremely tolerant of my "pup " despite the fact that she is now over a year old! She can literally clamber all over them, and they just accept it. However, that's not the point. I don't think pack theory applies because I'm not a dog, and they're not human. We try to accommodate each other, but we're never going to be alike, are we? So I treat them fairly, give them a "wage packet " for their work, and they give me love and affection. Do they respect me as a "pack leader "? I honestly don't know. I know they lie down when I ask them to, or Sit, or Come, or whatever, but that's down to training and fair wages for the job well done.....not because I'm the pack leader. So.......no, I don't think a pack theory applies when training.

Posted by: Marna O on 2010-08-19, 09:37:35

I don't consider "pack theory " when training. What I do consider is: What I want my dog to be; what his role is within our house and family. What the rules are within our house, and outside our house. I am the human, I know what acceptable behavior is within a human society and it is my house. Hence, it is my job to set the rules and train properly.